One Key to Behavior Change? Set the Bar Low and Keep It There: Dr. BJ Fogg, Stanford University Researcher and Author of Tiny Habits

Shiv Gaglani: Hi, I'm Shiv Gaglani, and today I'm really excited to welcome to Raise the Line someone whose work on behavior change has made a real impact in my own life. Dr. BJ Fogg is a researcher and teacher at Stanford University, and the founder and director of its Behavior Design Lab. He's perhaps best known for his recent New York Times bestseller Tiny Habits which details an approach to behavior change based on decades of work coaching more than 60,000 people. 

I'll be asking him to break down the method, how it can be applied by frontline healthcare workers to manage their own burnout, and how it might be used to help their patients with behavior change.  One last note…when we were just starting Osmosis, I actually used the Fogg Behavior Model to design some of the features we were putting into Osmosis including the push notifications, which are now called prompts in this behavior model, to drive constant studying and reviewing of content.

So with that, BJ, thank you so much for taking the time to be with us today. 

Dr. BJ Fogg: Thank you so much for inviting me. I'm so happy to be here. 

Shiv: Well, I'd like to start first with learning more about you and what got you interested in the subject of behavior.

Dr. Fogg: Well, I think I just grew up in a family and in a culture that really emphasized optimizing your life and your health and your wellness. My dad was a physician and I remember going to the gym with him for years. Even though he was super busy, he made time for that. And then within the larger religious community we belonged to, so much of that was about taking care of yourself and optimizing who you are. So, I think it was a really natural thing for me as I got older to try to understand how human behavior really works, and then later to discover -- I didn't know I was going to discover this -- but discover an entirely new way of helping people create habits. Once I figured that out, then sharing it just seemed really, really natural. 

Shiv: Yeah, totally. I think you've been able to boil down a lot of this in a very digestible and reproducible way. I mean, you don't have to read the full book -- even though I highly recommend reading the full book to our audience and I actually bought several copies for my friends and family -- to go through all of the ways people can change their behavior with Tiny Habits.

But maybe the thing we should start with is the Fogg Behavior Model. You have a two-minute explainer, and one of the things you encourage people to do is be able to explain this behavior model within a minute or two to their friends and family. Can we put you on the spot and have you explain it to our audience? 

Dr. Fogg: Absolutely! Not on the spot at all! I love teaching and sharing. In general, my work is called behavior design. At Stanford, we came up with that phrase to describe what we are doing and it's a new set of models and methods. The cornerstone model is just that, the Fogg Behavior Model. Usually, I draw it out when I explain it, so I'll explain it without visuals. It goes like this: behavior, any behavior, happens when three things come together at the same moment. 

Number one, there's motivation to do the behavior; number two, there has to be the ability to do the behavior; and number three is a prompt -- it's the thing that says 'do this behavior now.' If any one of those things is missing, then the behavior won't happen. That's like a 30-second description of it and there's a way to show it visually that shows that ability and motivation work in a compensatory way. They can be traded off, and I'll just give a quick description. 

If something is really easy to do, then you don't need much motivation to do it. That's a really important point, and the graphic shows this. But if something is hard to do, then you need lots of motivation to do it, and when your motivation sags, you can no longer do the hard thing. So, what the model shows for the first time -- not only these three components, motivation, ability, and prompt -- but the relationship between ability and motivation. That understanding then led to the Tiny Habits method and other innovations.

Shiv: When I first heard you talk about this almost a decade ago, -- I think it was a TedxTalk or a TedTalk or something -- the 'a-ha moment' for me was that we have these health professional students who are extremely motivated, type A people. But focusing on building a product that works upon their motivation alone is not the right approach. We need to make things easier and then we need to prompt them. So, our whole shtick was, let's create a mobile app and then start sending push notifications with questions so it makes studying easier, even if they've had a rough day and they just want to sit on the couch and eat Oreos and their willpower has gone to zero. But I think that was the big takeaway I had a decade ago, and I've used that in situations where I'm super motivated, but I'm not always motivated, so, using the Tiny Habits approach and then prompting at the right time can compensate for that lack of motivation.

Dr. Fogg: Yeah. And that's right on. Whether you're trying to get your own self to do new habits or others such as your patients, we just need to recognize that motivation is not a stable thing. It shifts up and down and we're motivated for different things at different times. Like in the morning, you might be really motivated to drink coffee. You're not motivated to do that at 7 o'clock at night, at least not most people. On the weekend, you're motivated for different things than you are on Monday morning. And just before lunch, you're way more motivated to eat than an hour after lunch. 

So because our motivation shifts, it's dynamic, what I've done in Tiny Habits and behavior design more generally is just to acknowledge that that's just part of human nature. It's not a flaw that our motivation shifts around. It's human nature, and there are some good things about that, but we have to recognize that we can't always get ourselves to do hard things because we can't always have high levels of motivation for studying or for exercising, or what have you.

So, what lead to the Tiny Habits method was looking at the Fogg Behavior Model and seeing that if the motivation is low, you can still do behaviors if they're really easy to do. Now, the motivation can't be zero. If the motivation is zero then it doesn't matter how easy it is. But if you have some level of motivation, then you can get yourself to do something really tiny and the Tiny Habits method builds on that reality, that fundamental truth about human behavior. 

Shiv: In the book, you mention your own Tiny Habit of flossing. Hopefully, my sister the dentist is not listening. She knows that flossing has been very hard for me to incorporate, but when I sent her the book, I mentioned your Tiny Habit was just to floss one tooth. Maybe you can talk to our audience about how you encourage people to set a Tiny Habit and then how long it'll take to develop into maybe a bigger habit, in your own case. 

Dr. Fogg: Well, let's keep going with the flossing one. It's a good one. And it's a true one. For me, it's one of the first habits I worked on using the Tiny Habits method. So, I recognized that I already knew how to floss all my teeth, but there were times when I wasn't motivated to floss very much. So, I said, "Okay, let's just scale it back. Let's just floss one tooth." Now, I know that might sound kind of ridiculous to people, but there actually is a big difference between flossing one tooth and all your teeth. There's a pretty big difference. And if you set the bar that low, like, "Oh, I'm really tired, I just brushed, I want to go to bed. Okay, I can floss one tooth," you can get it done. But if in your mind it's like, "Oh, I'm really tired, I just brushed, I want to go to bed," in many, many cases, people just go to bed and say, "I'll floss tomorrow." 

Now, in the Tiny Habits method, you take any habits you want and you make it tiny. So instead of floss all your teeth, you make it one tooth. Maybe you want to do twenty or thirty push-ups, but you scale that back to one or two push-ups. It might even be wall push-ups. In the case of vitamins, I take vitamin D and other supplements...Biotin, and so on. In that case, it's not about taking one vitamin. I put the vitamins in a dish, a little teeny dish that I put on my work desk. That's the habit. 

So, if you can take the bigger habit and scale it back in the right way -- and there are two ways to scale it back that I talk about in my book, Tiny Habits -- then the next step is where does this fit naturally in my routine? What does it come after? And flossing naturally comes after brushing. So then the Tiny Habit recipe becomes, "After I brush, I will floss one tooth." 

Putting the vitamins in the dish is probably different for different people. But for me, after I put my breakfast plate by the sink and I tell my partner 'thank you for breakfast,' then I turn to a drawer that I have with all the vitamins and I just pick up the ones I want to take and I put them in a dish. The Tiny Habit recipe becomes, "After I put my breakfast plate down and thank my partner, I will put the vitamins and supplements I want that day into a dish." I also pour a glass of water and I walk into my workspace and I put it on the desk. 

So, what you're doing is taking the habit and scaling it back, number one. Number two, you're finding where it fits naturally in your existing routine. What does that come after? Probably for flossing, it's the same for most people. Vitamins probably different. Push-ups may be different. For me, weirdly enough, the great place to do two push-ups is after I pee when I'm at home. So after I pee, I do two push-ups. For other people it might be, "After I start the coffee maker, I do two squats or three squats or two push-ups." 

You design the habit into your life and you make it really, really consistent by making it tiny. That way the swings and motivation don't derail your intention to do it daily. 

Shiv: I love that. It isn't just making a habit so easy or tiny. It's how you simplified even further and kind of get to the motive, like the actual human behavior design, as your lab is called. Another thing I know you do is after you floss one tooth or do the two push-ups after you pee, doing a quick celebration, right? I sent my best friend from high school the book. His name is Ian. His celebration -- you may appreciate this and he'll love the fact that I mentioned this -- he does a double dab in the air. 

Dr. Fogg: Bam. Bam.

Shiv: Bam. Bam, Exactly! 

Dr. Fogg: Good for you, Ian! 

Shiv: (laughs)

Dr. Fogg: So, the first part is designing the habit, right? You design it, and the format is the Tiny Habit recipe format: "After I…I will." Then what you're talking about here is reinforcing the habit. In other words, making it more automatic. I decided to call the technique for doing that 'celebration.' You do something that causes you to feel good in the moment, instantly. You are self-reinforcing. It's different for different people. I'm glad to hear about Ian's. You are causing yourself to feel a positive emotion and that's what creates in the brain a reward prediction error, and that's what helps cause that behavior to go just from a behavior into automatic behavior. In other words, a habit. 

The self-reinforcing piece, the celebration piece, is really important if you want to form the habit quickly. If you're good at celebrating, if you're good at feeling a positive emotion on demand, you will be very good at creating habits quickly. 

Shiv: Yeah. I love that. And the book is full of these extra things you can be doing, including changing your environment. Like, I love the healthy fridge that you and your partner adopted. 

Dr. Fogg: Super fridge! (laughs)

Shiv: Super fridge! Ice cream does not go in there, and I've tried my best to do super fridge too. Now, I'm curious, is the Tiny Habits approach equally effective for stopping bad habits -- smoking or drinking, or things like that -- as it is for starting positive ones?

Dr. Fogg: I don't know for sure. I have studied and measured and coached and done intensive work on using Tiny Habits to create habits. So, yes, for sure, that works. It works quickly. It's a very effective method for creating habits. What I've not done intensive research on is using it to stop bad habits. I get people that reach out to me and say, "It really helped me with stopping the unwanted habits." But I haven't done the research or the science that say, "Yes, it will work." 

That said, the challenge of breaking bad habits is a big one and anybody who tells you they have a proven method for that is misleading you. There is no one proven method for that. It's complicated. When you look at them side-by-side, creating habits is straightforward and simple and can be very fast, whereas the domain of "breaking" bad habits, as people call, it is more complicated.

There are different kinds of ways that habits wire into our life, and there are different ways of untangling them. That's what I talk about in my book. It's not the notion of "breaking." It's not instant, like breaking. You untangle a bad habit. And it seems to me -- again, I haven't done scientific research to be able to talk with authority about exactly how you do it -- but some habits are really easy to break. Going to the gym, for instance. Let's say you had a good gym habit. Bam. You broke the habit. So don't let people tell you that breaking habits is hard. Sometimes it's really very easy. 

Shiv: (laughs)

Dr. Fogg: But to your question, when people ask me about breaking bad habits, they are talking about behaviors they wanted to stop and they weren't able to just by saying, "Oh, I'm going to stop smoking or stop drinking or stop using social media," and so on. Those are more complicated because the reasons they wire into your brain and the way they have become part of your environment is varied. There's just not one approach to that. It depends. 

A habit isn't just the action somebody does. It's the person doing the action in a context, and you saw this in my book. It's the PAC person model -- Person Action Context. So, when you think about any behavior, including stopping an unwanted habit, it's this person doing this action in this context and those are the factors you need to consider. It's not just the action alone. 

That's why it makes the challenge of coming up with a universal way to help people break bad habits such a huge challenge. I don't think there is one way because you've got Person Action Context. In the example of smoking, there are different types of people with different relationships to smoking, and there are different contexts for smoking. So, it's just not a simple straightforward thing. Then, when you look back at creating habits, it's like, "Yeah, that's straightforward. There's a really straightforward easy way to create habits." 

Shiv: That makes sense, and I remember the 'untying the knot' of bad habits was effective because I think when people use the wrong words or the wrong analogies, they can come to the wrong conclusions. 

Dr. Fogg: Yes.

Shiv: So, I think that was a particularly effective one that I remember parroting to other people because you can untangle one knot, but there could be ten knots in that one bad habit. 

Dr. Fogg: Yeah. That's the word that I put forth in my book. I have a chapter on stopping unwanted behaviors. All behavior will come back to motivation, ability, prompt -- including bad habits. If you can take away motivation, you're done. But you can't always take away the motivation for social media or snacks. If you can take away the ability, you're done, but you can't always do that. If you can take away the prompt, you're done. But we all know that, for example, with the ice cream habit we had in our home, I wasn't going to be able to take away the prompt. The prompt was, we're relaxing and we're watching a movie. The motivation was, we love ice cream. And the ability was, it's in the freezer. So, the way we solved that, as you just said, is no ice cream in the house. It's banned. We have a policy, and that worked in that case. 

So, in cases like that, if you make a behavior very difficult or impossible, you can stop the habit. But can you stop using your phone completely? Maybe not. But you can delete an app. So, there's a kind of complexity in that. It will all come back to motivation, ability, prompt, yes, but it's the person doing that action in a context, and we have to account for those different factors. 

Shiv: We talked about some of the habits that you've incorporated, such as the flossing habit and the pushups habit. I love your Maui habit. You wake up and say, "It's going to be a great day." But there is your identity now as well. You went from having an outcome to a process to now an identity as a surfer. You are a surfer, and so you wear shirts that say, "I love to surf," and things like that. You actually live in Maui once in a while, and so...

Dr. Fogg: I'm in Maui right now and I went out to the waves this morning and I said, "It's going to be a great day!" Yes. (laughs)

Shiv: I just love the Maui habit! What are some current identities or habits you are trying to create in your life, if you have any?

Dr. Fogg: Well, so here in Maui, I have a room dedicated to Zoom where I am right now. As I look around, I have a keyboard, a Yamaha digital piano right there. I play that for thirty to forty-five minutes every morning in the dark. It's the first thing I do after I pee and drink a ton of water. I'm writing songs right now with a wonderful songwriter. I wouldn't have expected that in November when I said, "I'll create a habit of playing the piano every day." I started doing that and then that expanded and I found a new spot for it -- because I wasn't doing it first thing in the morning -- and now I just love it. Sometimes I play way too long and I don't have to force myself to do it. I have to force myself to stop! So, there it is, right there, easy to do. 

Then I have this kind of huge flute right there. I like to think of myself as a musician. I'm not that good a musician. But now, I'm doing the songwriting and two of the songs have been produced and I'm kind of thinking, "Maybe I'm a songwriter." I'm writing more lyrics every day. I have two other musical instruments over here. I'll play one of them. [musical sounds] So, I've got music stuff around me because music really matters. 

The fact that I'm in Maui and the fact that I have orchids in the room and plants is because I really identify as a person who's connected to nature. I have a whole bunch of nature habits -- which, by the way everybody, some of the most important habits you can have are nature habits. And then here in the Zoom room, I have a kettlebell. I've got dumbbells there. I've got a massage chair right there which I love. Then I have these little calf stretcher things and I'm at a stand-up desk. All of this didn't happen at once. It was me deciding, "I want to get better at music," which then led to a pretty serious musical practice and writing songs. "I want to be more connected to nature," -- I started this probably 10 years ago -- which actually led us to buying a place in Maui and living here halftime. Then wanting to stay healthy and vibrant led to a bunch of physical activities, but also redesigning our living space. We have a rowing machine in the living room as well. When I get back from surfing, I row. 

So, it's about just making it really, really, easy to do physical activity or nutrition or music or connecting with nature. I didn't do it all at once. When you feel successful doing something tiny, that's what changes your identity. okay? In November when I sat down at the piano and played a few chords, I felt successful because it sounded good. I was like, "Oh my gosh, my old skills at the piano are coming back." I started reclaiming the identity of a musician. 

When I feel successful rowing or lifting the kettlebells or whatever -- even at the early stages -- if I feel successful, that helps change my identity to "I'm the kind of person who's physically active." Those identity shifts then lead to a cascade of other changes in your life. I don't describe it in the book this way, but in some ways, that's kind of the breakthrough. You don't have to design a whole Zoom room of musical instruments and fitness gear. Just do what excites you and do it in the Tiny Habits way, and help yourself feel successful, which will shift your identity and then you will naturally do other behaviors that align with that new identity. 

You'll have more than one identity. Mine are 'musician'; I like to call myself a 'water man' -- that's the identity for someone who's always in the ocean...I'm not sure I live up to that; somebody who's physically active. So, these identities can feel authentic and they establish themselves and grow based on if you feel successful. The surprise is, even the tiniest thing -- like flossing one tooth and feeling successful about that -- helps you think, "I'm the kind of person who takes care of my teeth." And, more broadly perhaps, "I'm the kind of person who takes care of my body." 

So, that's what really excites me. You don't have to design hundreds of new habits in your life. Just get started and let the process work naturally. 

Shiv: Absolutely. You talk very eloquently in the book about how the habit can get deeper, so instead of just one tooth, it becomes all of your teeth or it goes from flossing teeth to then doing these other things that make you feel like "I'm the type of person who takes care of their body." And then, most interestingly, it goes from you becoming an example to your friends and your family as they see the change you made in your life, and the social movement aspect that you talk about in the book. 

Dr. Fogg: Yeah. And before we move on, let me correct something. A lot of people get this wrong, and I want to make sure that especially this audience understands this accurately. The Tiny Habits method is not "I'll do two push-ups and the next week I'll do three and the next week I'll do five" and you raise the bar. No, that's not the Tiny Habits method. The Tiny Habits method is, you set the bar low -- like two push-ups or one wall push-up or flossing one tooth -- and you keep it low. You do not raise the bar on yourself. 

But, any day that you want to floss all your teeth or do twenty push-ups, you do as much as you want, and that includes day one. If on day one of flossing you want to floss all your teeth, do it. That's great. But count all the other teeth as extra credit. Count all the other push-ups as extra credit. And really, really importantly, don't raise the bar on yourself. That's hard for us to do, at least for me and a lot of people like me, because we've been raised for continuous improvement and to get better and better and better. 

What you need to do in the Tiny Habits method is set the bar low, keep it low, overachieve whenever you feel like it, but don't raise the bar. Don't raise your expectations. I floss all my teeth twice a day now, pretty much. There will be times like last night when I was super tired, so I missed a few teeth. I was like, "Okay, I'm done." And you don't feel bad about that. There might be a time next week when I'm super busy. I'll just floss one tooth and go, "Bam, I did it." That's fine. I'm moving on and I'm not going to feel bad about it because I didn't raise the bar and I understand that I'll get back to it the next day and I'll do all my teeth probably the next day. 

Shiv: Thanks for clarifying that. Our audience tends to be very type A, very driven. You know, "I'll get an A in organic chemistry, then I'll get to med school and become a neurosurgeon, then I'll save millions of lives." Those kinds of things. So it's a good clarification. 

Dr. Fogg: That's me too. [laughs] That's me too and I'm a person who loves novelty and I love improvisation. That's why it's odd that I am like the 'habits guy,' and that I developed a method. Maybe it's appropriate. Maybe I needed a method because I'm a guy that likes to wing it...I'm great at cramming for tests and all of that. I'm sure there are people who can relate to this. I'm not a natural habit person, but there are skills of habit formation -- and I map those out in the book -- and you can learn those skills. Some of them are counterintuitive such as setting the bar low and keeping it low. 

Shiv: I know we're coming up on time, so I want to be sure and ask you about the work that you've done with nurses and burnout, and any advice you have for healthcare providers in general about leveraging Tiny Habits to improve not only their own lives, but the lives of their patients. 

Dr. Fogg: My sister and I did a project with a large research hospital. We trained the nurses and ER staff in the Tiny Habits method. We did a pretest and post-test -- solid study design -- and we taught them how to design the Tiny Habits as we have talked about. We taught them how to celebrate, and they started celebrating each other and the results were terrific. Some of the significant findings were -- and these are exact phrases -- "I'm able to design positive habits at home." That was significant. "I practiced building resilience techniques throughout my day." "I recognize when something goes well at work." "I practice healthy habits daily at work." So, it really did work. 

I knew it would work because I've coach thousands and thousands of people. But the thing that surprised me was the insight that the busier you are and the more stressed you are and the less time you have and the less energy you have, then the more appropriate it is to use the Tiny Habits method. These nurses and ER workers couldn't go out and walk for an hour. They couldn't meditate for 30 minutes. I mean, they were just pushing it to get a sip of water. They had a culture of, "We don't drink water on our shifts because that means we're not caring for the patients." 

Fortunately, that shifted when they started doing Tiny Habits. But doing that work was great. It helped me. It was great to see the impact on their professional lives and their personal lives -- they were more there for their kids and their spouses -- but it made me realize that the busier they are, the more they need the Tiny Habits method. The 'big leap' methods are not going to work for those people. 

Shiv: Yeah, that makes perfect sense. I do want to ask you two last questions. One is, what advice would you give to our audience about meeting the challenges of COVID and beyond? It could be about Tiny Habits, or otherwise. You're a professor. You've had a very interesting career. What advice would you like to give them? 

Dr. Fogg: I guess there are two directions. One is about your own life, and the other is to be prepared to help others. Maybe you are already in a clinical setting. In your own life, just start practicing habits. Use the Tiny Habits method. Get my book and do the free 5-day program -- there are videos and so on -- and be playful with it. Don't try to be perfect. Follow the directions of the Tiny Habits method. 

If you say, "After I brush my teeth, I'm going to run for an hour." That's not the Tiny Habits method because it's not tiny. So, start playing around with habits in your life being guided by what I've outlined in the Tiny Habits method and you will find what works for you. Play around with celebrations to find what celebrations work for you. And be nice to yourself along the way. We're just too hard on ourselves, and that's one of the big insights in doing this work. We change best by feeling good, not by feeling bad. Okay? So be nice to yourself, have compassion. Nobody's perfect in this change process. Then, if you are working with others, help them to first to be nice to themselves, but help them understand how the Tiny Habits method works and how to apply it very practically in their lives. 

I had a physician who didn't know I was writing the book Tiny Habits at the time. I was really busy burning the candle at both ends and he said, "Okay, I'm going to teach you a meditation technique right now. When you are stressed, do this." And during that 15-minute visit, he took the time to actually teach me a new breathing technique that I didn't know. He said, "This is what you do." And I walked out of there thinking, "Oh my gosh, he just killed it, and he didn't even have my book yet!" 

Shiv: (laughs)

Dr. Fogg: So, even within that limited time frame, I so admire that physician for taking the time and teaching me a very, very simple thing to do and helping me contextualize it. So, I think it is possible. Help people change where they want to change. I mean, my physician wasn't getting me to do things I didn't want to do. He was listening to my concerns, telling me about something I could do, and he made it work within the time frame. So, it's not an impossible, people. One of the key things is just to get people going, just get them started, and once they start, they build hope. That's one of the main things of the Tiny Habits method, especially the 5-day program. It gives people hope, and then with hope, they do more and they do bigger things. 

Shiv: I love that. That's a great personal example, and it's timely because the interview we have after this is with James Nestor who wrote the book Breath. You may know that book.

Dr. Fogg: Awesome. Yeah.

Shiv: And breathing is definitely an interesting place you can easily build habits with the Tiny Habits method in a way that can be stress-reducing and overall health-promoting. Is there anything else you'd like our audience to know about you, about Tiny Habits, or about anything else we haven't discussed today? 

Dr. Fogg: Yes. There are two sides: a negative and positive side. I'll start with the negative side. There's so much crap out there about habits and behavior change. So, be discriminating. There's so much garbage out there that has misled people for generations such as, "repetition creates habits." That's not what creates habits. Or, "It's just an information problem. If people just knew, they would do differently." So, be cautious. 

But, on the positive side, now there is a systematic way to think about behavior and to design for behavior and design for habits. I do feel like what I share in Tiny Habits and the behavior model was given me to share, and I’ve got a huge obligation to share it. I'm not going to be shy about it. It's a very important, how do I say this...solve. It's a breakthrough. Now, other people have taken my work and repackaged it in some forms, but if you want the full treatment, go to Tiny Habits. I just think it's really good news that we now know what the components of behavior are. We now know how to help ourselves and others create habits quickly and easily. Now that you know that, then it's just a matter of, "What habits should I form? What habits do I want?" Because you can transform your life now. 

So, now it comes back to you, or the person you're helping, to really understand what they want and help them achieve what they want. Creating habits is one of the most impactful things you can do to achieve your dreams. And I'll end with that. 

Shiv: I love that too. Because even though we call the podcast Raise the Line -- which is about how we can improve health care capacity and train more healthcare workers -- I really think the work you are doing with behavior design can get more people to ‘flatten the curve.’ Not just the curve of COVID, but the more they take care of their own health, the less diabetes they'll have. Therefore, the fewer endocrinologists we'll need, because we just won't have enough endocrinologists for everyone with diabetes in the future. We don't currently, and we won't in the future. But if we can get people to change their behavior design the way you describe, and frankly use the book like a treatment versus just taking pills, I think that's what the future will be. 

Dr. Fogg: Well, thank you again for inviting me. Sharing with your audience is so important to me because I just want my methods to get into the world, and working through healthcare providers and healthcare systems is one of the best ways. So, thank you so much. 

Shiv: Thank you for taking the time to be with us and for all the work that you've done. Obviously, I'm a personal advocate of it. And with that, thanks to our audience for listening. Remember to do your part to flatten the curve and raise the line. We're all in this together..and go ahead and start your Tiny Habits! Take care.