Helping Doctors to Avoid Getting Ripped Off – Dr. James Dahle, Founder of The White Coat Investor

Rishi Desai: Hi. I'm Dr. Rishi Desai. Physicians can earn a healthy salary once their careers get rolling but even after 30 years of practice, about one out of four doctors ends up with a net worth under $1 million. That's where today's guest comes in. Dr. Jim Dahle founded The White Coat Investor 10 years ago to help physicians achieve financial security. 

He provides a wealth of investing and other financial advice through a blog, a podcast, a newsletter, YouTube channel, online courses, and many, many other resources. The White Coat Investor also helps people find financial advisors, insurance policies, and options for paying off student loans. I'm also personally a huge fan of the podcast. I've learned a tremendous amount. Jim, thank you so much for being with us today. 

Dr. Jim Dahle: Thank you. It's wonderful to be here. 

Rishi Desai: So, one of the things that I really enjoy about your podcast is you’re one of us. You’re a clinician, and so it's very relatable. I'd love to just hear your backstory in terms of when did you first even get an inkling that you were interested in health care and particularly, EM?

Dr. Dahle: Remember those surveys we take in eighth grade about careers? Mine said I should be a doctor. I mean, it's been a long time that I was planning on doctor as a career and I never really deviated from it. I remember there was one point probably in my junior year in college when I call my dad and said, "Dad if I go into medicine, I'm not going to be out of training until I'm 31." And that seemed like forever to me, right? 31 seemed really old. He had, of course, a very different perspective on how old 31 was and told me, "You're going to be 31 then anyway. You might as well be doing what you want to do at that point."

And so I did. Applied to medical school and got in at the University of Utah and thoroughly enjoyed my four years of education. A lot of people hate medical school. I loved medical school. It was really fun. I was finally learning what I wanted to learn. I had a lot of great friends. It was a class of only a hundred and so you got to know everybody. We played a lot of Foosball and did a fair amount of skiing and rock climbing, and of course, a lot of studying and it was a great education and thoroughly enjoyed it. 

I remember one of those “lunch and learns” the second year of medical school. Somebody came in and I'm like, “Wow, that guy's a lot like me!” and he was an emergency physician. Up until that point, I thought I was going to go into family practice and changed my mind. I was kind of cemented with my first rotation in emergency medicine, and that's what I've been doing the rest of my career since then.

But, how I got into it? I think it's the same as most people. I loved science and enjoy helping people so that's how I ended up in medicine. And why emergency medicine? I guess it just fits my personality. I'm a little bit of the ADD type. I like to get results relatively quickly. I like diagnosing. A lot of people get their patients sent to them already with the diagnosis. I kind of enjoy that process, and I like not knowing what I'm going to be doing when I head into work each day. 

Rishi Desai: So, it’s interesting. You mentioned this eighth-grade survey and then you also really loved med school. I also loved med school, so I can totally relate to that experience. I'm curious if you were to take that survey today, what do you think it would say about what you should be doing?

Dr. Dahle: It's interesting. You know what else the survey said I wanted to do?  The second one was be a writer, which I've now done. I'm the author of three books and of course, write a blog. The third thing was a heavy equipment operator…like those big cranes and those big excavators and dump trucks. I haven't figured out how to have that career yet. I'm still working on that. But maybe I can have all three of those careers by the time all is said and done.

Rishi Desai: It would be interesting to see what on the list was at the bottom. What did it say you absolutely should not be doing...

Dr. Dahle: (laughs) I can't remember, but that would be interesting information to go back and look.

Rishi Desai: So, you went through this very admirable kind of path. You enjoyed yourself. You were having a good time. What kind of got you interested in finance? Like, when did that become an interest of yours? And then how did The White Coat Investor really get started? What was the initial kind of foray into that?

Dr. Dahle: Lots of doctors kind of angle off into finance or into real estate or that sort of stuff because they get burned out on medicine or because they're not enjoying what they're doing. That really wasn't the case for me. Even residency. Residency was my favorite job. Yes, it was hard, but I loved it. I was learning stuff all the time and doing all kinds of new stuff and seeing great patients with interesting diseases and injuries and I really loved that. But about halfway through residency, I realized that every financial interaction I'd ever had had ended badly for me. 

I'd basically been ripped off by a recruiter, by an appraiser, by a mortgage lender – twice -- by an insurance agent, and the one that was the straw that broke the camel's back was a financial advisor. It was a commissioned agent masquerading as a financial advisor, really. I finally said, “Enough is enough. If I don't start learning about this stuff, I'm just going to keep getting ripped off.” So I embarked on this self-study process. I started reading books and perusing blogs, participating in internet forums, and after a few years realized I was doing a whole lot more teaching than I was learning and I got sick of typing the same stuff into the internet over and over again. So I said, “Well if I start a blog, I can just post a link to it. Then I don't have to type the same stuff in.” And that was a big motivation, actually, for starting The White Coat Investor blog back in May 2011. 

But I started as a business from day one. I mean, I was trying to make money. I put ads up that first week. It was kind of fun the first year when my daughter would climb up on my knee and ask, "How much money did you make today on your blog, Daddy?" And I'd say, "$1.37. Somebody clicked on an ad!" I really didn't make much money for two or three years. It took quite a while for me to figure out how bloggers actually make money. But since then, it's grown into quite a business. We have about 12 people working for us now. 

It's exciting to create jobs that are good jobs with good benefits and good salaries, and I've enjoyed the entrepreneurial aspect of it as well. But the drive behind it is the passion. I want doctors to not get ripped off like I did. That was basically the reason I started the blog and it's still the reason I'm on this podcast today promoting it a little bit, because I don't want doctors to get ripped off. They are wonderful people who dedicated their lives to the healing of the sick and injured and they're getting taken advantage of way too often. 

It's a terrible statistic -- the one you mentioned at the top of the podcast -- that 25% of them are not millionaires by the end of their career after 30 years of $200,000 to $300,000 a year. They still haven't accumulated a million dollars and I think that's a real tragedy. Those are actually the people I want to help the most. The ones who are doing awesome, I'm not too worried about. But the ones who are struggling or the ones that I want to see have a little bit more financial success in their life because of all the benefits it will bring to their lives and their practices.

Rishi Desai: That makes sense. I'm curious if you've started gaining a following in other clinical specialties, you know, nursing, PAs? Are you seeing traction among other clinicians that also have a lot of the same questions, I would imagine?

Dr. Dahle: For sure. I mean, 95% of personal finance and investing is the same for everybody. Let's not kid ourselves that we’re totally unique. There are a few unique things for doctors, but not that many. If I look at my audience, it's about 80% physicians and their trainees. Another 10% are dentists and their trainees. Then the other 10% are made up of various other high-income professionals a lot of which are in the healthcare field -- PAs and NPS and pharmacists. Also, small business owners and attorneys and a hodgepodge of other professions, but what they all have in common is they all tend to be in the upper tax brackets.

Rishi Desai: Got it. And so, given that you were inspired to do this because you didn't want to repeat yourself over and over…one of the benefits, of course, of a podcast is people can watch and play it. So, for the listeners out there, what are some of the most important things about investing and financial planning you've learned that you wish everyone knew -- and obviously that's like asking someone to condense their life's work down to an answer, I get it -- but if you think of what's on the top of your mind right now as we're talking, what would that be?

Dr. Dahle: Well, just a few broad principles I'd throw out in response to that question. The first one is to figure out what you care about. We all care about different stuff. Spend your money there. So, be selectively extravagant on the stuff that you really care about -- whether that's cars or vacations or a house or eating out or clothing or your entertainment -- then be generally frugal on everything else and that will allow you to really maximize your happiness with your money. It's amazing how many people think somebody else cares what they drive. Nobody cares what you drive. Your co-workers don't care. Your patients don't care. Nobody cares. If you're not a car person, drive something cheap and spend your money elsewhere, on the stuff you really care about. 

Another principle is I think people dramatically overestimate the difficulty of doubling your income. A lot of people feel like they're locked into their salary for some reason. Over the years I have been really impressed at just how easy it can be to increase your income. You have to pay attention to it. It has to be a priority to you. But whether it is your main job and it's asking for a raise, or switching to a new job or a new employer, or starting some side gig, it's surprisingly easy to increase your income. A lot easier than most people think it is. A lot of people are of the mindset, “Woe is me. I'm only an internist. I can't possibly keep up with those ophthalmologists, orthopedic surgeons or whatever.” And the truth is the intra-specialty pay range is much wider than the inter-specialty pay range. Right? I've met pediatricians that are making seven figures a year. I've met pediatricians that are making five figures a year. It's a huge range. So do not feel stuck with where your income gets. 

Then the last thing I would say: invest your time actively -- in your pursuits, in your practice, in your side gigs, whatever you're doing -- and keep your investing both simple and passive. So, invest your time actively, invest your money passively. I think if you can follow those principles, you're likely to become financially successful. 

Rishi Desai: That's good advice. I mean, for the record for those listening, I do care what car you drive and so don't think nobody cares because I keep track of what everyone in the world is driving. 

Dr. Dahle: (laughs)

Rishi Desai: In regards to your other point about why folks believe that they're locked in, why do you think that is? Like do you think that's something that's just part of the medical culture or why is there this kind of overriding belief that you have a bracket and you’ve got to stay within it?

Dr. Dahle: Well, part of it I think is doctors don't like to negotiate. We don't like confrontation. Medical school and residency select for people that don't like confrontation so we're very unlikely to even negotiate our salaries at all. That's particularly true for women. They're even less likely to negotiate their salaries, but it's a problem all the way across medicine and that's part of it. 

Part of it is the trend toward employment. So many of us now are employees, and this has become particularly profound in dentistry. Dentists are becoming employees of corporate dental management practices where they used to mostly be business owners. So, where a lot of us used to be owners of our own business and captains of our ship and how much we made had a lot to do with our business savvy and how hard we worked, now a lot of us are locked into a W2 job and we actually have a salary. That’s part of what makes us feel like we're locked into it. But part of it is simply just a scarcity mentality and we assume that there's only this much money and that's it. There can never be any more in the world. And that just is not the way the business world works. Most successful business people are concentrating on growing the pie more than trying to get a bigger piece of it. 

Rishi Desai: What are some common mistakes you see physicians making with regard to their financial planning? You mentioned the things to do. What are the things to avoid that are common?

Dr. Dahle: A big problem is poor student loan management and I'm not just talking about spending too much in medical school and taking out too many student loans, although that is a problem. I'm talking about what you do with that afterward. Way too many people are deferring their student loans or putting them into forbearance. That is almost always the wrong move. You should be in an income-driven repayment program. The payments are not very much more, and they might be zero dollars still, but all those payments you make -- and I say "make" in quotes because they might be zero dollar payments -- count toward forgiveness programs, right? So, if you end up going for forgiveness and you were in forbearance during residency, it's a terrible mistake. Same thing if you choose the wrong income-driven repayment program. If you refinance when you should have gone for public service loan forgiveness, you’ve just taken your federal loans and made them private loans and now you can't get them forgiven. That's a huge mistake. Or when you're not going for public service loan forgiveness and you haven't refinanced your loan, so you might be paying six or eight percent instead of paying three percent. There's a lot of mistakes that people make with their student loans. 

But probably the biggest one doctors make is they spend too much and they save too little. I generally recommend that attendings save 20% of their gross income for retirement. That's just what it takes to retire at normal age. Five percent is not going to cut it, but most doctors have no idea what their savings rate is. Just take how much money you saved for retirement last year and divide it by your gross income. That tells you your savings rate, and if that's significantly below 20%, you need to take a real hard look at your lifestyle and realize that if you don't do something about it now, you're definitely going to be doing something about it in retirement. I mean, you mentioned at the top of the podcast that 25% of us are not millionaires at career end. Now, some of those are terribly tragic stories of people who got disabled without disability insurance, or had three divorces or whatever. But most of the time the reason those docs are not millionaires is because they spent too much and saved too little. 

Another issue people have with their investments is they don't have any sort of coherent written investing plan. They're just collecting investments and so they end up with a few stocks, and a few mutual funds, and a few cryptocurrencies, and whatever the investment flavor of the day is and they throw it all together and kind of forget about it and hope they're doing okay. There's no underlying mix of investments that was thought of beforehand and they try to adhere to. I think a lot of people still need some sort of written investing plan -- whether they write it themselves or whether they work with a financial planner to get it written -- they need some sort of a written plan.

Then finally, I'd say too many docs are worrying about the wrong things. They're worrying about asset protection despite the fact that almost no doctors lose personal assets in a malpractice situation. They worry about timing the market rather than time in the market. They should be worrying about things like their savings rate and their mix of investments, their asset allocation. Instead, they're worried about how their Tesla stock did last month, and that's just irrelevant to their financial goals. They need a goal-driven process. It starts with their goals, looks at their investment accounts they have to invest in, looks at their mix of investments and finally selects the investments instead of worrying about all this other stuff. They just don't have a framework or a plan to put it all into. So, I think those are probably the most common mistakes I've seen doctors making. 

Rishi Desai: It's interesting you mention the Tesla stock because oftentimes when I go out to spend time with folks that are in the medical or dental field, that comes up a lot. Not Tesla necessarily, but stocks. “This stock went up, that stock went down, or you can invest in this. What about that? What about Crypto etc.” And it feels to me that it's maybe like when you don't have a language to talk about your overall strategy and portfolio, then you default to the thing that you can talk about which is, "Oh, I heard on the news XYZ is kind of going up or down." Do you sense that? I'm curious whether it's literally a lack of an understanding about how to come up with a strategy and therefore kind of defaulting to something that's just easier to wrap your head around.

Dr. Dahle: Yeah, for sure. And this is hardly a physician-specific problem, although the Tesla thing feels a little physician-specific. Docs are really into both Tesla stock and Tesla vehicles. They're really into them. I mean, it's almost uncanny. You say anything bad about either one of them and you get a bunch of hate mail. But you're right. It's just that there's no coherent investing plan. I don't care if somebody really loves Tesla and wants to put 2% of their portfolio into Tesla stock, or they want to have some Bitcoin as 5% of their portfolio. I don't care. What I want you to have is some sort of coherent plan for the rest of it…that it’s not just 40% Tesla stock and 25% Bitcoin and another 15% Etherium and a couple of other stocks. That's not a sensible portfolio. You need a sensible portfolio. If you want to have a little fun money with 5% of it, knock yourself out but the rest of it is serious money. You ought to take it seriously and you ought to invest it like a professional would invest.

Rishi Desai: Yeah. That's good advice. Probably the most important advice that I think a lot of folks might take away from this is to put together a plan that makes sense for where they are in their career. I'm curious. Do you feel like med school should be teaching financial planning and if so, have you seen any examples where it's being done right?

Dr. Dahle: Yes. I'm a bit more and more excited every year to see another medical school put in a course, but we're probably talking about five or six schools at this point. Now, 10 years ago there were zero, so five or six is awesome, I think, but there's obviously a lot more medical schools than five or six. I think the best way to do it is as an optional two-week course as an MS4 -- that time period between when you match and when you leave school. I mean, who are we trying to kid, right? What are you really learning that time period? You're doing an elective or two getting ready for residency. Taking it easy. That is a great time, just before you start earning money, to really wrap your head around personal finance and investing and so I think that's the ideal time to learn it. 

Obviously, the earlier the better but that is a time when people are focused on it, and those who have started programs, that's generally when they have put them in and that's when people are most interested in them. I think two weeks is enough time and typically it is some sort of evening course every night for two weeks for two or three hours. They bring in some guest speakers and they teach the basics of personal finance and investing. And if you've never learned the basics of personal finance and investing, this is a life-changing course. I mean, it's probably worth millions of dollars to you over the course of your lifetime. It's like the first really good financial book you read. When you combine that knowledge with the position and income, it's just worth a lot of money. And so yeah, I think medical schools should be doing it. 

Let's not kid ourselves that it needs to be the main focus of medical school. The main focus needs to be learning medicine, but shoot, if they're going to charge you $50,000 or $60,000 or $70,000 a year for this education, they could throw in a little bit on how to manage the loans properly afterward. Right? I mean, it's not that big of an ask.

Rishi Desai: No, I totally agree. Let’s say you're a student out there listening to this and you say, “Well, that sounds great for the students that go to those five or six schools, but my school doesn't offer that two-week course that you're speaking of.” What would you suggest a student do if they have exactly two weeks and they are dedicated to spending 2-3 hours a night for two weeks. In all, we're talking about 30 hours. What should that student -- that may know nothing about investing -- what's the first step for that student to take to get savvy on this stuff?

Dr. Dahle: I've dedicated a large portion of my time in the last 10 years to providing the answer to that question. I mean, The White Coat Investor is designed for that. It's designed for medical students and dental students and residents and practicing docs to become financially literate. The information is free on the podcast and the blog and our free monthly newsletter. It's basically there for free. We have communities of docs in our forum and our subreddit and our Facebook group that can answer your questions. When you're ready to learn, the resource is there. 

But what would I do if I had two weeks? I would probably start with books, because the nice thing about books is you spend a lot more time when you write a book then you do a blog post or you participate on a forum, and you make sure you get it right and you put it into a framework. And so when you read books, you get a framework that allows you to hang future information on and know where it fits in. 

On my website, I have a list of recommended books. I think you ought to read one that's physician-specific. Obviously, I'm partial to my own book, "The White Coat Investor," but something like that, I think you ought to read. I think you ought to read a basic investing book. Something like, "The Bogleheads' Guide to Investing." I think you ought to read a basic personal finance book. Something like perhaps “The Only Investment Guide You'll Ever Need.” It says investment in the title, but it's really about personal finance, most of it. And then something on behavioral finance I think is worthwhile such as "How to Think About Money" is a really good book on that topic as well. But those books aren't, you know, there’s nothing terribly special about them -- there are other good books out there -- but reading a handful of books over the course of those two weeks I think will pay some really valuable dividends. Then putting together a budget for that first intern paycheck that you're going to be getting and having some idea of where your money is going to be going during your residency, I think is about all you can ask for people.

Hopefully, at that point, they'll come out with a plan for their student loans. They'll buy disability and life insurance if needed as they start their training, and maybe they'll even start investing a little bit of money into a Roth IRA during residency. And if they do that, it's a win, right? The rest of it can wait for that last year residency quite honestly.

Rishi Desai: That's awesome, and I imagine many people well beyond residency would probably be able to kind of jump in and find value there as well. I always think about behavior change, and this is a behavior change issue. You're describing how the tools are there for those that want to execute a plan. Many people are probably not there yet – they are pre-contemplation or in contemplation -- not quite ready to do that. What is your sense on the reasons that folks aren't ready to jump in and start learning? What is the block for a lot of folks that you’ve seen?

Dr. Dahle: I think we're busy. I think that's part of it. Doctors are busy people and we’ve got a lot on our mental plates and this is something else we feel like we have to do and it’s sitting in the background. The other thing is a lot of us bring some weird baggage into our adult lives with regard to finances. It’s stuff we learn from our parents -- not necessarily that they taught us, but we learn from their example -- and we bring that baggage into our lives and it produces these blocks that keep us from really confronting our finances and addressing our financial problems directly. So, working through those -- whether you need an advisor, or a coach or a therapist to work through those -- is I think worthwhile doing. 

But the main thing is people just haven't realized the power of getting their finances under control. I mean, financial literacy plus financial discipline…that combination is so rare in our world that is like having a superpower. I mean, here I am in mid-career. I'm financially independent, meaning I don't have to work for money. I've got an awesome schedule, right? I only work day shifts in the ER on days that I essentially pick at will. I go on vacation twice a month. Now, why can I do all this? I can do this because I took care of my finances. There's plenty of income as a physician to do this sort of a thing in your life by mid-career. And if you will take advantage of that, become financially literate, and apply a little bit of financial discipline into your life -- I'm not asking you to reuse your plastic bags and your paper towels by any means…you only have to be relatively frugal -- you will have those sorts of opportunities and that sort of freedom and flexibility that you will want by mid-career. I promise you, you will want it. As hard as that might be to imagine as an MS4 or as a PGY3, by mid-career, you're going to want some flexibility in your career and the way you do that is by taking care of your money.

Rishi Desai: Now, obviously, in the last year, COVID has changed how healthcare is practiced in many settings. I'm curious, how has it affected personal finance? Have you seen any sort of shifts in terms of how people are thinking about money, or how they should be investing their money that came up because the COVID? Has it revealed new things that folks were unaware of before, whether that means government opportunities, new regulations, etc?

Dr. Dahle: Well, I think there's been a lot of things people have learned over the last year. 
On the financial side, I think we learned a few things. One, we learned that our incomes, our doctor incomes, are not as stable as we thought, right? Those who are doing “elective” procedures…they were basically all canceled for two months. Their incomes went to almost zero. And even those of us who are in more essential specialties, if you will…I mean emergency department volume has dropped across the country by 40%. Not only did people stay home with their silliness, but they stayed home with their MIs and their strokes and everything else because they're so terrified of getting COVID. And even today, I think we're still down eight or ten percent from where we were before the pandemic. So, I think a lot of us learned our incomes are not as stable as we thought and so a lot of people became very interested in side gigs last spring whether that was telemedicine, whether it was medical-legal stuff, whether it was starting to blog or podcast or getting into real estate investing or whatever it was. I think doctors became much more interested in developing some sort of additional source or multiple sources of income. 

What else did we learn? I think we learned as well that maybe our career paths are not as stable as we thought. There is a lot of angst among emergency physicians in particular right now. There was a report that came out from our national group, ACEP, this last year that basically we're projecting a surplus of emergency physicians and everybody's wringing their hands and trying to figure out what to do about. A big part of that is simply that there was less hiring this year because those emergency department volumes were down, but there's some other factors that go into it as well. So, I think that's got a lot of people thinking about maybe they don't have a 30 or 40-year career ahead of them and maybe they need to be saving a little bit more money or developing other sources of income again.

I think we all learned something in the bear market last year, right? That was a very rapid bear market recovery. I invest about the same time every month and unfortunately, it worked out to be about two weeks before the bottom of the market last spring and two weeks after and so I totally missed the opportunity to buy low in that bear market because it was just too short! So, we learned that bear markets can be both long, or at times it can be very short. It was a pretty profound drop we had and a very rapid recovery and people need to keep in mind, if that's the only bear market they've ever been through, most of the time the recovery is not that rapid. It usually comes, but it's usually a matter of years, not a matter of weeks. I think that's an important lesson to learn as well. 

The other thing that I think was really interesting was to see just how willing the federal government was to support the economy by printing money and spending money and passing out money willy nilly. The PPP program that many of us business owners benefited from last year might have been worth $20,000 or $30,000 to a doctor depending on how many employees they have. And of course, those making under $100,000 got their “stimmys”…they got their stimulus money, and then interest rates were kept artificially low and really the government just spread an awful lot of money around.

Now, maybe this year, we're paying a little bit of the price for that with some of the increases and inflation that we're seeing. But whether that was the right thing or the wrong thing to do, I think it surprised a lot of people that the government went as far as it did. I think those are probably the main things to learn. Overall, I think we learned that both the people in the system and the system itself is surprisingly good at adapting, and is maybe more resilient than maybe we thought it was.

Rishi Desai: Wow, yeah. That's a nice list of learning points and certainly ones that I had flagged in my head as well over the last year in terms of, specifically, how willing the government was to spend. It was very interesting to see that and the ramifications of that. So, I'm curious, you have a very interesting career and you're obviously very relatable. You practice clinically and you now have a lot of folks following you. Do you have any final parting words of advice for folks that maybe just joining the healthcare profession in terms of how they should be thinking about themselves and thinking about money more broadly?

Dr. Dahle: Sure. Medicine is still a great profession. I mean, when I was applying to medical school, all the doctors were warning me about how terrible of a career it was going to be and how all the HMOs were going to ruin it all, right? And we're still hearing that today. We're still telling that to medical students and pre-med students…that everything is going to be terrible for you and you missed the golden age of medicine. 

But the truth is medicine is always going to be a great profession. It is a wonderful way to help people. It's a great career and it still pays pretty darn well. It's still a good deal financially. If you come out of medicine with the average physician income, which is about $275,000, and the average physician debt, which right now coming out of an MD school is about $205,000, that is a good financial deal. That is a good investment. 

There are some professions out there where it is not a good investment. Veterinary medicine comes to mind. The average debt and the average income of a veterinarian is not necessarily a good deal. But medicine is still a good deal. Dentistry is not quite as good, but it's still reasonable. Law school…if you're not at a Top 20 law school, I'm not sure you can say the same thing these days. It may not be a good financial deal. So, it's a wonderful profession. It's still a good deal. 

I know there's a lot of angst as people borrow more money than they've ever made in their entire life to pay for their education, but if you're getting out of medical school with $200-300,000 in debt, let me assure you that you will be able to pay that off. You do have to do a few things to pay it off, though. You have to have a plan for it. You have to live like a resident for 2-5 years after you finish residency. If you will do that, you can pay off that debt and you will have a wonderful career and a wonderful financial life, but you just have to have a plan to take care of the cost of your education upfront. So, I suppose those would be my parting words. 

Rishi Desai: Well, that's fantastic. Thank you so much, Dr. Dahle for being with us today, and thank you for putting together those amazing resources. I know many, many people find them helpful, including myself. 

Dr. Dahle: You're very welcome. It's my pleasure. 

Rishi Desai: I'm Rishi Desai. Thank you for checking out today's show. Remember to do your part to flatten the curve and raise the line. We're all in this together.